The way the mooch ratio is calculated has now changed. This change only effects people who give or receive books internationally.

If you give a book to someone in another country, this is counted as sending 3 books for the purpose of your mooch ratio. This hasn't changed.

However, until today, if you then mooched a book from another country, this was only counted as mooching one book.

Several people pointed out to me that this didn't seem right: if you give a book internationally, and then mooch a book internationally, the two should "balance out" and be a 1:1 ratio. Until today, this behavior would result in a 1:3 ratio, and this is no longer the case.

As of today, giving internationally still counts as 3 books sent (no change with that) but mooching internationally now counts as mooching 3 books, so that the two operatings are symmetrical.

This is what my mooch ratio calculation looked like until today:

notice that there is a bonus for giving internationally, but no comparable adjustment for mooching internationally.

As of today, this is what my mooch ratio calculation looks like:

I've also "cleaned up" the way the information is presented so that it's easier to see how the numbers add up.

You can see your own mooch ratio by going to the "Member Home" and clicking the linked "Mooch ratio" text on the top right of your page.

Hopefully, this change won't be too controversial, as it seems to just make sense, and to fix what was essentially an oversight on my part when I programmed the calculation.

-john

So be it - I can see this site having less and less users from all around the globe; and you are making me less and less inclined to participate. My angel help, and the fact they were all international mooches which lowered my ratio, was a huge reason for me taking on so many...not any more. The cost of postage and my ability to buy books on-line so cheaply will sway me, with all these changes which impact negatively on my mooching, in the direction to cease.

add: It is becoming so much harder with postage costs to justify any of this - but at least I knew I could mooch enough books to recompense my outlay. As belladonna1975 says below, this will now work so much against this.

And removing posts from this blog holding opinions you may not like is not cool, but I bet this one doesn't stay.

Edit: I do like the clearer explanation on the ratio page; I just don't like the change in the ratio.

Yes, I feel altruistic when sending to obscure parts of the globe (where there are few members & fewer English language books) but I also get a thrill from the extra mooch points!

Does this mean that the mooch ratio isn't going to count so much against us if it gets closer to 2 points?

I was given to understand the original adjustment (bonus) for sending internationally was to encourage more international sending. It helped out a lot of people. Now you're penalizing people for mooching internationally. If you want the sending and mooching of international books to zero out, you're much better off just going back to the old system, in which points balanced out, and the mooch ratio was 5:1. You changed the mooch ratio and included the bonus simultaneously last time, in order to discourage abuse without discouraging international mooches. Now you're essentially going right back to the old system *without* changing the mooch ratio back, which means it's going to kill international mooching!

This is so prohibitative to interational mooching that words cannot describe, and it doesn't fix point inflation either.

Please rethink this change.

I have always enjoyed being presented with this new ability to share my passion for reading with some previously unknown person across the world. I also find that I usually end up paying only 5 to 10 dollars to ship an international book, no matter where to. When I consider how much pleasure bookmooch has brought me, the new books I have been able to get on my extremely limited book budget, and the money I have saved on books I have been desperately searching for; the added expense of spending 10 dollars, which I would have previously spent on a book, doesn't really bother me.

I am also worried about the amount of money I spend on postage and it is sometimes impossible to afford the number of requests, both international and here at home, but I still think that this change is not really all that big of a deal.

Bookmooch has saved me hundreds of dollars on things I couldn't find elsewhere, given me days of joy, and allowed me to read books that I would previously have ignored because I didn't want to spend the money on them. I've never found myself lacking in points or needing points where I didn't have them. The scales have always been evenly enough balanced for me to get what I want and I have no fear that this change will become anything to be concerned about.

***I just want to also add an amendment here for people mooching from outside of the US. I don't know what your situations are like across the world and so can't really comment on your feelings about the change. This is just my view on how the situation has played out for me.

You CANNOT RETROACTIVELY change what these points mean to me. I spent that money with the understanding that I could mooch X number of books with it. If you change the rules for *new* points we can talk then. But to make changes *retroactively* as far as I am concerned is a form of *thievery*. And removing these posts after the fact is censorship of your thievery. It accomplishes the *same* thing as lowering the points for international books sent would do, it will decrease international trade of books. You are effectively a) Punishing anybody not from the United States b) Punishing anybody who has 'too many' points built up.

I sincerely hope that you have the best interests of *all* bookmoochers at heart, and if so I expect that you will quickly reconsider this. PLEASE seriously reconsider this. I am actually literally begging you. Otherswise BM will likely turn into a second PBS, and who needs that?

This is a change that doesn't even affect me, personally, that much -- I send internationally more often than I mooch internationally, so it doesn't hurt my ratio particularly. But, man, that's going to hurt anyone who primarily sends domestically and mooches internationally. And people who primarily send domestically and mooch internationally are *not* bad for the community one little bit. Here are three important examples:

1) Books that are hard to find outside the US can make it to another country through one person who is willing to internationally-mooch them, and then generously passed around within it. This change will badly hurt any given moocher's ability to be generous that way. Not a good change.

2) In some countries, like Canada, sending domestically is more expensive than sending internationally. This would now discourage them from sending domestically in *two* ways (because it will now hurt their mooch ratio). Not a good change.

3) In some countries, like Australia, postage out of the country is unreasonably high, but a moocher may want books from the UK or America or elsewhere sometimes. Now they are being told that they are not allowed to use their points to mooch internationally unless they're also willing to send internationally, which they may not be able to afford to do. Not a good change.

I'm baffled that you call this an "oversight," as I remember you specifically saying the bonus had been implemented to offset the ratio change. (Which had been 5:1, initially, to allow people to mooch internationally.) "Fixing" things this way completely negates that bonus, yet the lower mooch ratio remains. Just . . . not a good idea.

And all the more because it was applied retroactively! Without even a warning! Retroactively giving people a bonus is never minded; retroactively punishing people for something that was totally fine while they were doing it, however, is just cruel.

Please reconsider. This may not directly affect me, but I love BookMooch largely because of its internationality, and this will hurt hurt a lot of people outside the US badly.

The strength of bookmooch lies in its internationality, this is what sets it apart from various other national book swap sites. It also means that as postal rates etc go up, swaps will go down a bit. Just a sign of the times. Making it harder for people to trade internationally will really end up shooting bookmooch in the foot in the long run.

As an English reader living in Germany, I don't have that many local English books to choose from. With the new points (discouraging international mooching) I will also get less international requests (if any), and will have to send 3 local books to be able to get 1 as I don't have many English books to choose from locally.

This hardly encourages me (and I assume other people in my situation) to list any more books as I won't be able to mooch much.

People in the thread say that this penalizes mooching internationally but doesn't penalize sending internationally. If I have to choose, I'd say that's the right way. I quite often see people who don't send internationally, but I never hear about people who can't/won't mooch internationally.

I think the people who encouraged this change also forget how much trouble it can be to actually send internationally from some places; what with weight limits, special restrictions on bulk mail...I can end up spending the equivalent of US$10 just to send out one mooched book. If the ratios are equal, then I would actually be *saving* money in many cases, and not having to wait as long, just to buy the book I want online. Sure, the warm fuzzies of someone else enjoying my books would be gone, but there are times when I can't afford to send and essentially have little to no chance of being able to get at least a book in return.

With this change, I think you'll find even fewer people being willing to send internationally than before, which was a problem in the first place, and people like me, who essentially rely on people sending internationally, leaving the site.

I have huge amount of BM points. Still I have kept adding books to my inventory (just sent 60 books, all international, in past two weeks), because *I think BookMooch is great and I love sending books to people who want them* and *I have believed it is possible to use those points. Someday. Maybe.*. Now it seems I should feel ashamed because I have so much points.

The ratio change took my ratio from about 0,5:1 to 1,36:1. That's not too bad yet, but if I use all my points I will go way over 2:1. So I can´t use my points. So I'll stop adding books to my inventory. And *that* will hurt BookMooch more than the points in my account or the low or high theoretical mooch ratio.

John, please reconsider this.

I know that since we get extra points for listing and feedback, we should expect that if we use them we'll end up with higher ratios (just as if we mooch books on 2 for 1 offers etc) and I understand that's one of the reasons why the limit is 2:1 but please consider that the adjustment should've been counting international mooches as mooching 2 books, not 3.

Thanks,
Andrea Brigneti

A lot of people made some really interesting and well thought out comments about other ways to improve Bookmooch -- the vast majority of people didn't seem to have a problem with the points system, but more that the books they wanted didn't ever seem to come up, or if they did, they were overseas and the owner only sends in their country. I think a system that encourages people to send heavier and often wishlisted books with more points (both for the sender to pay and receiver to get, so there's no 'inflation') would have been a better idea.

I have cookbooks I'd like to send, as well as other heavy books, and plenty of 'popular' books sitting in my cupboard in an ever growing pile waiting for a month when I can afford to list them (as as soon as I do I will need to send them out). If all the books on my wishlist were available too, I would be much more inclined to make this a priority, as right now there's nothing I really want in return and I can spend that money on other things, like second hand books locally. I think the way to do it is to price books differently, with those that have a long waiting list worth a point or even two more points to encourage people to list more 'highly wanted' books and increase enjoyment and usage for everyone.

When points have more 'value' more people will send overseas as well, as they'll be keen to rack up those extra points to use them to pick up books they really want. There'll probably still be inflation, but does it really matter? Who's keeping score? There's no 'banker'. If I have a lot of points, I like to give people extra 'smooches' if they've sent something quickly or they don't have many points.

I am really upset about these changes. I mooch a lot from overseas (as other people have pointed out, the biggest amount of books is in the US, and also, I often find things that aren't available over here that are there and look interesting). I also get a lot of mooch requests from overseas, and I've honoured them all, apart from one or two when I was really broke who wanted me to send books but refused to send internationally themselves. I don't think that's right. I honestly have to say, I don't think I'll be doing that anymore unless you reconsider these changes.

another question: Were the members who 'suggested' the change the same persons who complained about members who have high points available in their accounts?

The reason I am asking is that this sounds as if your change mandate here is in the same vein as your 'high points' comments in a previous blog, coming from the same group of users.

and to make this change retroactive is not fair to us at all. You set it up & we used BM under those 'rules' and now you change the rules?

In which case, could there be the possibility of another tier, a *region* only one, like North America, Europe, etc. that would take a *2 points* ratio into account? That would make things easier, as I tend to mooch a lot from Europe. That way, it would be a nice local incentive, and that would even out the ratio in a more logical way.

I just don't want to end up in the 2.0 ratio because of the new system, and I would appreciate a 'region' alternative.

I'm a very active member. Most all my mooches and request are international and I'm grand with that. (I recognise a few fellow book mooches above on this thread that I regularly mooch from and would hope to still continue to mooch from them).

That said, this change in ratio will now greatly hinder international mooching activity and has created more obstacles that were never there in the first place.

It will now also deter those willing to mooch/send abroad from doing so and in turn kills the ethos and reason for BookMooch. How is that an improvement and who will benefit?

Not happy. Disappointed actually and feel that those of us willing to send and/or mooch abroad are being penalised very unfairly. Plus to change 'ratios' without prior warning is most unfair and I agree wholeheartedly with Bcteagirl from Canada (who, incidentally has just posted out multiple books to me in N Ireland, which I'm very grateful for).

PLEASE reconsider these drastic changes and heed the comments of all concerned and affected.

How much does a mooch point "cost" us in postage?

In the US, it can cost us between $2USD and $3USD to mail a book to another member. If it costs more than that for a book that another member has sent me, I will smooch a point to them.

Internationally, it can cost me between $3USD & $5USD per point. As an angel, I frequently have to spend a point to mooch a book so the international moocher can mooch it from me. Frequently, I will get smooched points to compensate for the additional costs associated with angel mooching.

John, this is your sandbox. Yes, you can make the rules & you can change the rules. You can even kick everyone out of your sandbox & tell them it is closed. That is your choice.

But if you change rules & make rules that others don't like, you may find yourself alone in the sandbox.

I certainly don't see the benefit to doing angel mooches/sending outside of the UK anymore.

With worldwide sending we were rewarded for the extra potage costs, now it seems we're not.

I don't think a book for a book is a 'fair' ratio guide, afterall to keep the site international and to send to other countries you are certainly spending more, so why has the encouragement to do this stopped?

I certainly will have to think again before sending so many books outside of the UK and will probably halt with angel mooches also.

All I can see is that less books will be added, less people will send outside of their country and there will be less growth as a site on the whole.

My ratio went up from 0.53 to 1.56.

I still have 160 points "unused" in my account. If I would use those points, I suppose my ratio might exceed 2:1, and I could no longer mooch. Possibly, I could not even consume all of those points, if I hit the max. ratio earlier.

Although my situation may be extreme, I don't think it is unique. There are only 4 or 5 countries with a sufficiently large number of users to facilitate domestics mooching (US / UK / DE / AU? and ?). I bet a large slice of international mooching is people in all kinds of countries where English books are scarce requesting these books from the US or UK. Even for other languages, most countries are so small that they do not support enough supply.

In the past, I have *very* often made multiple mooch requests hoping people would be more willing to send books. These changes will make multiple mooches unattractive, especially if one is not really interested in the extra books.

Also, smooches and charity will be unattractive, as using them on international mooches will unfavourably skew ratios.

I fail to see how these changes benefit BM, and fear other changes to come.

When our (UK) postage rates changed to being based on dimensions as well as weight of the parcel, it meant sending books cost even more. This is why I have now emptied my inventory, and decided to use up the points I have without trying for any more. I'm already giving away books to get different books, but I honestly can't afford to do so now now that it leaves me out of pocket.

It's taking me ages to use my points up, as I only want to mooch books I can't find round here - mostly authors I've learnt about on the internet, the population of which is of course mostly in North America, so many of my wishlist are only available in the USA or Canada. I have no choice whether to mooch internationally and (without being able to read every comment here) I'm sure that is true for many of us.

I'd suggest a ratio of 3 points for sending but 2 points for receiving. That way it does cost more to mooch internationally, which personally I'd mentally include as part of the bad luck of having to mooch internationally, but it doesn't penalise those of us who have no choice. I'd already thought it seemed silly to 'pay' equally when receiving from overseas, but making the ratio 1:1 simply isn't fair.

You have always seemed very good at listening and adapting to opinion, which is a wonderful thing about BM. So fingers crossed ... :)

"Since I am not very good at writing in English, I will leave my message in Spanish.
I'm on the site since 2008 and being in a country that has very few participants at BookMooch, almost all of my trade are international, making today with changes in the percentage system, is almost the limit and suddenly can not ask more books.
Does not seem right to have changed the system retroactively, without notice. And like many of whom have written before, I think this does not encourage the international exchange (but opposite) and unfortunately those who do not live in USA or Europe, we will see discrimination within BookMooch.
I'm really grateful to Bookmooch, but from now on you can see it very difficult to find someone who 'can' or 'want to' send books to our country."

I'm just sayin.

Quite honestly, it is very frustrating. I understand your reasoning for the change as I have read what you have written in your blog entries as well as the feedback of many fellow moochers, but I really don't think this is going to help BookMooch in the long run. For those in countries that don't have many participants, it is quite a detriment in fact. I feel for them. Making this work well for the US only is only going to hurt the economy of BM and will make many a member leave. You have to think about a global economy here, which is a lot more complicated. I think that many of the international participants have said things quite clearly and you need to listen. I'm considering finding another sandbox. Even though I've been an active participant since last May, the changes make BookMooch less affordable for me.

But I do think that this change is wrong.

First, changing the rules retroactively is simply unfair. Whether the change is beneficial to the system in the long run or not, we play by the rules and we don't expect the scoring system to be changed at half-time.

Second, John, you wrote recently that one of your objectives in staring this site was to promote international exchanges. As you can see from the many comments from non-US members above, the change you have made appears to do quite the opposite. As a US member I know that if I'm patient someone in this country will post a book on my wish list. If I were in Papua New Guinea I'd be SOL.

It's your site, John, but I hope you'll reconsider for the health of the community.

I would have to agree with Elizabeth and Sarah below....the "too-high" mark is going to have to be reset. And the retroactive move was just not playing fair. Are we trying to run off our international community??

You simply cannot give with one hand then snatch away with the other at a much later date. I'm sure many of the people who have been willing to send internationally in the past will now have a rethink and where will that leave Bookmooch? My guess is in a bigger mess than you seemed to think existed when you opened your other forum on the health of the site!!!
My previous thinking on what caused the slump in book mooching was a persons disposable income, I now know any further slump will be down to this disgraceful, disgusting, underhand decision that is akin to theft.

By all means do what you like, it's your site - after all you just have done.

I can cease to send and receive books internationally from now on (and I now have a mooch I need to cancel), but I can hardly travel back in time!

Also, the continued censorship is unworthy of you, especially when the previous instances were excused as a one-time "mistake" caused by exhaustion.

But I am worried that people won't be motivated anymore by international mooches. As the poster from China said, there's almost no domestic traffic outside the US (And I am guessing the UK), but México, Argentina even Spain will become extremely hindered in which once was a very active international community (I have many wonderful mooch friends).

I would also appeal to you to reconsider. If the "price" must go up, why not make it 1.5, maybe even 2. But definitely keep some kind of incentive. Otherwise this site will become exclusive to the US domain and all of us international moocher will most probably end up dropping out.

Also, this comes from someone who has been incredibly active on this site and mooched 300+ books besides being an active Angel moocher.

Unfortunately I think in the end bookmooch will end up as a national USA mooching system.

I think it is unlikely that I will mooch from abroad now with the increase of points. As the UK base is much smaller and I'm unlikely to pick up many books, this will mean I won't need to send so many. If everyone thinks like this then BookMooch will become smaller and growth will be affected. I'm no economist but surely that's not what we want? I've enjoyed my time with BookMooch but have plenty of access to books through my local library and charity shops but that does not apply for lots of people. I have also now got a Kindle which means I don't need to get hold of lots of books because many are free. The popularity of ebooks will surely affect the numbers of books being put on the site as well as increases in postage. We need to be encouraging people to put books on to the site, not putting them off so the change in the point does seem particularly unwelcome at this time.

One of the main reasons I joined BookMooch was to make sure that people all around the world did get the chance to read but that has to be economically viable for its users. I hope that the site will continue to grow and that I can still be a part of it. I very much appreciate all you have done John but perhaps you are trying to move things on too quickly? It is certainly not fair to alter the ratio ratings retrospectively.

It is silly to take peoples points...kind of like stealing...let people keep their points that they made up to the time of the decision, and from this point on make the changes. Unless you really do want to get rid of international mooching and if that is the case just keep stealing points and pissing people off that are mooching and sending internationally and you will eventually have a system that is exclusively american as it gives no bonus for international mooches and n-o incentive to mooch internationally.

It cost me 19$ a few weeks ago to send a book internationally and 20$ domestically but the prospect that I could get other books from a moocher either internationally or otherwise keeps me going. If you continue with the changes likely you will loose many contributors. It's sad but used on Amazon.com or ca is cheaper. it will put you out of business if you do not keep your contributors happy and onboard.

Just my 2 cents.

Chantal in The Great White North (ie Canada)

Like many others here I loved BookMooch because it felt like I was sharing my books with other Book Lovers.

Rising postal costs & the possibility that you can only change the rules and make them retroactive makes me wonder will I wake up one day and find I have no points at all.

This is really sad because I have always thought you a trustworthy individual who would treat his members as he would wish to be treated. I don't have that trust for you anymore.

I think this change will affect international mooching negatively and will really hurt non-US members. Life isn't fair — just look at the various postage rates in different countries — but we can try to make things as fair as possible.

John, please reverse this change. It is unfair on so many levels. Show us that you really do care about the community and listen to our voice, that all of that isn't just PR. I'm still hanging on to a remnant of trust in you that you'll see the effects of this decision and reverse it. Everyone makes mistakes and we will be overjoyed to forgive and forget.

Thanks for reading.

All international mooches up to the point wherein the new policy was enforced were made under the old system, and it's not fair that moochers are now being penalized for what used to be perfectly legal.

I've slowed down BookMooch activity because in the past year I've had trouble finding titles I want within the system, and seeing my ratio plummet to 1.42:1 is not very encouraging.

But I surely agree... this new awesome retroactive points system will be surely helpful for international mooching, sure, yeah.

:facepalm:

Telling them to just keep adding inventory and sending, to further add to a pool of partially unspendable points... is just asinine.

Be that as it may, to me what is really wrong, is that it's retroactive. All of us made our international mooching decisions based on the ratio that was then in effect; it's just not right to go back and change it. If you want to institute the new ratio AS OF NOW, that's one thing, but it seems rather arbitrary to go back and change it for past transactions.

I tried to do the maths on angelling but fail to understand why people predominantly mooching from their own country but sending internationally, would be disadvantaged by the change.

I think you are correct. I don't think this change should adversely effect angels. However, that said, that doesn't mean it won't, and as we have heard from some comments, it seems it will. The problem was the change happened without prior notice or clear communication of the effects this would have on how we can mooch. Some moochers are angry and confused. As you said, the math is hard to understand, trying to predict what will happen based on possible future choices even harder. Perhaps a system-wide email explaining that as long as you *send* books internationally, you are free to *mooch* books either internationally or domestically. The reverse is not true. You can't *mooch* internationally and *send* domestically without messing up your ratio (a mistake I think). You also can't just use all the banked points you have earned (through the 3rd point from mooching internationally) and keep mooching books without sending; it messes up your ratio (sigh). I understand why that latter point needs to be true, as painful as it is. There are too many of us with more points than we need (in spite of giving away many, many points) with no motivation to post any more books. That is what will cause the Bookmooch economy to collapse. However, "all we have to fear is fear itself": Moochers panicking and deciding they had better stop mooching and sending internationally because it will mess up their ratio will also cause the Bookmooch economy to collapse. The mistake was in how this was instigated and communicated.

My ratio is now at 2.66, and I don't have the money to mail out a vast number of books.

What do I do with my points now, I feel like I've been unfairly locked out.