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location data: should BM share it?
While fixing the Recent Books feed on Twitter, I came across an interesting idea: each book being given away could be associated with its physical location in the world. This would make possible: - you would be able to view a google map of your area, and see what books are available near to you.
- I could pass this location info to the "recent books" feed, and Twitter will automatically show where the book is on a map.
- A "books near me" page could be made, showing books within 50 miles/km from your home. It could be a list, or it could be a map.
- If you're traveling somewhere, you could see if there are BM members nearby that you could mooch from, thereby avoiding postage.
- This would promote "mooching nearby" which would be carbon-friendly.
Sound super, right?Well... I have major privacy concerns with this idea, which is why I haven't done it yet. I'm bringing this up in a blog posting, so I can get your feeling about these issues. Here are some approaches I could take: - Make it opt-in: only people who want location associated with their books would have that happen. However, probably very few people would bother to opt in.
- Make it an approximate location. Like old-style GPSes, I could add 10 miles/km of "uncertainty" to the location. This is my favorite solution so far, as BM members are already identified by their city and "within 10 miles" is probably good enough for these uses.
- Make it approximate and opt-out, so people can choose to have not even a vague location of the books available.
- other ideas?
What do you think?-john
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John Buckman
14 years ago
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Comments
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John, I'm not sure it adds anything as I already know what state or country they are from and an exchange of e-mail messages gets me all the details the other person wishes to share so we can connect face to face if we wish.
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I think this sounds like a great idea. Opt-in at first to see what people think about it. I think some fuzzing would be a good idea, you can narrow it down to Zip code rather than exact street address.
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YEAH, I like the opt-out, state, ZIP code idea
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Wonderful idea--and the opt-in and approximate location should take care of the privacy issues. Very cool!
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I personally like the idea of including a "books near me" page. I say just use the existing city or zip code that the members have already including within their profile page. This would require no more information from the members than what is already being provided. That way if the member doesn't want to participate in the "books near me" page, all they would have to do is simply remove the city in which they live from their profile page...and maybe only include the state. They could still have their mailing address held private and given out only when that member chooses to mooch a book for a fellow member.
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I think this could be a good idea, but would prefer the 10 mile approximation idea or nearby city and an opting in option. I don't want people to assume we can meet up for the mooching, though it could be a possibility. Also, I like the idea of sort of being able to track copies of books like with Bookcrossing, only no stickers in the book. I find those stickers to be incredibly rude. Use a bookmark! But overall, the system works well and as someone else commented, doesn't need to be slowed down by extra bandwidth use, etc.
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This is great if someone wants to save on postage, but in my experience I've found it very difficult to organize meet-ups with other BookMooch members (schedule conflicts aside, they'll often want me to commute to their side of town to pick up the book from them, which strikes me as unfair seeing as I've already in a sense paid for the book I'm mooching and don't understand why I should be paying both postage and bus fare). I'd be much more interested in seeing some sort of incentive that will get members to list more books in their inventory. I have maybe 900 books on my wishlist, and I'm just astonished at how infrequently books become available.
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Ed Hahn's comment said it all for me perfectly. Also, I would rather this be "opt-in" than something you have to "opt-out" of. I hate it when sites automatically opt you in to something you might not necessarily want.
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I do not like the idea for security reasons. If a person wants to make contact with a certain person they can e-mail them. Then if that person wants to follow thru they can by return e-mail.
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I think the idea is fabulous; definitely as an opt-in feature.
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I'd prefer to have my info hidden- go for the opt out/in. I don't really feel the need to know where other users are either...
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I think it's a great idea from a shipping perspective. If there are multiple copies of a book available, I try to mooch from people closer geographically to me as it sometimes makes it cheaper for them to mail the book FIrst Class rather than book rate. I do think it should be an opt-in feature but could be quite useful for those of us in heavily populated areas.
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As a tree-hugger 1st class I can appreciate the practicality of the idea. Only recently I mailed a book to my hometown which is about 3 minutes from here. I pass by the place almost every day when I visit my mother, for crying out loud! However, when I started to email the moocher to say I'd just drop the book by, I put on the brakes. It was a book for a young teen. I have one of those in my home, too, and I don't want strangers "dropping by with books." Unfortunately, privacy is a big concern right now, and practicality has to give way to safety.
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I think this sounds like a good idea when you first consider it. But I agree that it probably wouldn't add much to the experience for most of us. When there is a choice of books to mooch, I'd guess that most people opt for the closest option. And if you're not looking for a book, who cares whether it's available close to you or not? Maybe living in a large, urban area it's different somehow. I live in a small place, and I've actually exchanged books with a couple of local people in the past so I know there are others there. The fact that they're here doesn't mean I'm going to want their books more. I'd say make it an "opt-in" thing if there are enough people who want it.
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Don't we already have an option to look up books by zip code?
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Yes, we already have zip code searching, but it is a bit cumbersome. I think it would be neat to be able to see the location of books on a map, but I also don't like the idea of having my actual address pinpointed. What might be better is if users could opt-in by typing in an address (or lat/long) that they would like to use for their "map address". That way people would have to actively make the decision to use the feature, and they could choose to either use their own address or use the address of, say, their nearby post office or McDonalds. In this way, the location could still be a close approximation without having to be your home address if that is something that makes you uncomfortable.
And to get existing members to "opt-in" to this feature, you could either place a link to the option or just throw up the option on the screen for members who have not yet opted in or out the next time they mooch or list a book.
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Personally, I wouldn't find much use for it because most of the books that I like to mooch in my genre of choice have so few books to choose from (either it's only one copy available or there's none at all). Having BM show if it's close to me from a shipping standpoint doesn't help me at all. I'd be most uncomfortable with the whole thing from a privacy standpoint, and would like the opt-in/opt-out feature to be a must have. Just my 2 cents.
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I don't see how it would add much to the Bookmooch experience. I can already check in my country to see who is offering what (granted, I've a much smaller pool of moochers here in Japan than those of you in the U.S.). And usually books I want are in other countries anyway. (On a different topic, how does Bookmooch notify members that a book they want is available--does everyone who has it on their wishlist get an email, or first listers get preference, or what? Just wondering. )
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I already look to see who lives closest by and have met up with a number of fellow book moochers without this feature. I'm with Michael who suggested: I'd be much more interested in seeing some sort of incentive that will get members to list more books in their inventory. I would be all in for that!!
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hi there i am not in favor of this idea, for 1 thing you are starting to get away from you original idea of mooch.. i do not even like the idea google can identify my house from the air.. so i do not like this idea, ... therre are just to many weirdo out there who would use this type of infomation.... sue.
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I'm not a fan of anything that reminds me of a social-networking site; if that's implemented an opt out option would be a must, and I would prefer to opt out. Thanks for asking for our feedback.
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I'm very uncomfortable with this idea and if it's anything other than opt-in, I will be leaving BookMooch for my own safety.
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i agree it would have to be opt-in and not on by default; also approximate seems safer in general. i'd like the map idea but i don't necessarily want to meet up with folks. it's just interesting to add a graphical interface to the searches we can do. i have sent books to people near me but never wanted to presume to hand-deliver anything, nor would i want anybody coming to my apt necessarily... but more local post is greener and cheapest!
maybe add something in the opt-in page that asks if you'd be willing to do hand deliveries or receive them? so that's another level of opt-in?
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I'm not in favor of an opt-out, I prefer opt-in if this process takes effect. I'm not interested in hooking-up with a stranger to swap a book. I swap with my friends and co-workers, then add the books to my inventory, after they have made the rounds. Most of my books have had four to six readers by the time they are mooched. I also recycle the wrapping. I'm being green!
I'm keeping too many appointments, as it is, I like the flexibility of going to the PO on my own. Not only that, I feel good about contributing to my mail delivery worker, I don't want another American job loss.Not to change the subject - BUT - I would like to see some kind of cut-off/freeze for the wish-lists of inactive members, say: 180 days - It gives a false idea of how popular a book is when, in some cases, several moochers have been inactive for a year or more. Thanks for the opportunity to give in-put.
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I have problems with location data but you seem to have some great ideas. If you made it both opt-in and approximate location I would join in.
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Even if you only show the state, this is enough to help those people that can be a problem because they can follow up from there to locate you easier. As much as some do not like to accept the fact, the fact remains we do have stalkers around the world that like to cause problems and anything that might give our location away can cause someone a problem. Even if it is only one out of 1000 it is not worth the risk because that one person could be any one of us. And stalkers look for easy prey, this makes all of us easy prey which increases the numbers. Just my opinion
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How about if people had a "location zone" option? In real life we are not always home, many people travel everyday to a second location for work or school or whatever. So this would help with people who could, for instance, exchange books in New York City, where they work but not usually in an outlying area where they reside only in the evenings/weekends. This would also mean that people who want more privacy and yet want to exchange books in person could choose a nearby "swapping location" that would satisfy their needs. I have not read all the responses, so perhaps another person has already suggested this.
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Mmmmmh... dont' know if it's worth the coding, it's not something I feel the need for. I find it not so useful and/or entertaining, so I wouldn't use it. Moochers already know where their books of interest are when requesting them. Yes, it could be useful for in-person exchanges if two moochers happen to live in the same area, but this is quite irrelevant for some of us and has its downsides too.
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I'm sorry but I don't care for the idea. For one thing I don't want my exact location available to everyone. I'm not antisocial but I don't want to meet up with other moochers; the anonymity feels appropriate and safer. I do give up my address for someone to mail me a book but only them, not the whole BookMooch community. Also, I don't mooch based on where a book is located... I don't quite understand how this is helpful. And how is it greener for me to drive my car to go pick up a book 25 miles away when the "mass transit" postal service will deliver it to my mailbox, a place it will be driving to every day anyway? I do not see any advantage to doing this. It's like me driving to work everyday instead of taking the bus. If you decide to do it please do offer it as a 'opt in' feature only. Thanks John.
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if you do it (I'd opt out), then before you implement it, make it something that the BMer has to make a decision the next time they login. "We are starting a "books in your area" feature. would you like to include your books in this feature? Please indicate your choice here:" "you can change your mind at any time." ------------------------------------------------- I've found that there are too many weird, crazy & dangerous people in this world (just my opinion, YMMV) and I don't want an email similar to this: I'd like to mooch Kryptonite from your inventory. I'll be driving through your town on my way to Metropolis on Wednesday. Can I pick it up then?
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Ok, so the general feeling is "no to location (except if opt-in)", which is fine, I have plenty of other things on my plate. Currently, I'm working on getting better book data (from non-Amazon book data sources), so that "Topics" work better, but also so that our mooching friends in non-Amazon countries can enter their books easily. Thanks, everyone, for your thoughts! -john
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I have to say - I really hate the idea, even as an 'opt-in'. For all the reasons already stated, especially security and privacy concerns. But I have an additional objection. The beauty of bookmooch is PRECISELY that it transcends geography. I would be concerned that members would begin to limit themselves to mooching with 'local' parties. The ability to reserve books for specific members has already changed the bookmooch experience, and not for the better. The people for whom bookmooch is the biggest blessing are exactly those people for whom used bookshops, well-stocked libraries, dense population centers, communities of readers, etc, etc, are NOT readily available. I hate this idea.
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John,
I think that this sounds like a great idea! I like the zip code idea.
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I also like Ed Hahn's comment.
City & State is sufficient in my opinion.
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I would be for this idea, assuming that it is not avail. only for certain countries. If it is avail. only for certain countries, who chooses which country? Is it automatically one specific country that would get this option first? Etc. :)
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Hi John, I know I'm commenting late, but I just read your latest response so have a couple of comments. First, when mooching a book I use the list of BM Users that the book is available from and choose someone who lives closest. I think that feature is just fine. I would prefer an opt-in feature, too because I don't like being automatically enrolled in anything online. My second comment is directed toward your post "Currently, I'm working on getting better book data (from non-Amazon book data sources), so that "Topics" work better..." YES!!!!! :-) Searching by Topic is very frustrating and I would find that much more useful than trying to find out where my next mooch is coming from! :-) And third, thank you for this site! I love BookMooch!!!!!!
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For those who are concerned about security, Bookmooch already has the option to search for
people from America by city and zip code, people from the United Kingdom grouped by city and people in France by department. But this gives you their user ID and whatever user name they have picked, not their real name unless they chose to use it. For those who feel that since Bookmooch already offers this function and that further information would not be necessary, may I point out that Canada is not included in the above countries and that it is *really* big. I have found (through luck and happenstance) some local Bookmoochers, but would find having Canadian moochers identified by at least Province if not postal code very helpful. It costs 2 to 3 dollars to send to the next province over. Of course, it costs less to mail a book to the States than to mail a book to someone a short bus ride away in my City. I found most comments in this discussion a bit American 'centric.
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Anything with significant privacy concerns should always be opt-in. Providing an opt-out option is the second-best choice because, if there's somehting I don't want, I don't feel like I should have to opt-out... but I would definitely opt-out and probably leave Bookmooch if such an idea were adopted without allowing the opt-in option. Those who want to participate will opt-in. If they're too lazy to opt-in, they probably would not be great participants. For myself, I wouldn't want to participate in this idea. I'm much more comfortable sending my books to distant parties than I am with meeting anyone face to face. As for those who want more books... patience is key. I'd love to list everything I'm willing to swap, but I can't do that. Every time I list 10 books to swap, the majority of the new listings get snapped up almost immediately. If I list more than 10 to 12 books at a time, I would be overwhelmed with postage and other shipping costs. In addition to the above, I'd also like to state that I don't primarily mooch books closest to me. I look at condition notes and choose the book in what I feel is the best condition, if any such information is provided. All too often, moochers don't include condition notes. I would like to see some incentive to use the condition notes... maybe an extra half point for listing 10 books with condition notes... or maybe because it'd be easier, an extra tenth of a point per book for using condition notes. If no condition notes are provided, then I might choose the book closest to me, but I also look at the member's activity, so lots of things factor into my choice of who to mooch from, not just one factor.
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I'd go for opt in and approximate. I worked with data miners long enough in a former job that ANY broadcasting of exact location data is going to scare me away. Having said that I'd be fine if I don't have to participate. Make it approximate just for everyone's privacy IMHO.
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Good idea but "Make it approximate and opt-out".
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I also have major privacy concerns about this. I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea of a large number of people knowing where I live. I think this opens up the possibility for all kinds of negative consequences. Naturally if it were to be instigated there would have to be an opt out option for people like me who aren't comfortable sharing that information. Also I think there are a lot of people who really wouldn't benefit from this because of the areas they live in.
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I can locate books via the zip code feature that you offer. With the cost of gasoline, is it really "worth it" to travel up to 50 miles to Mooch a book. The system you have in place works. Why fix something if it ain't broke?
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The fact that the person sending the book has your complete address tells me i'd be easy to find for anyone wanting to find me, after i've mooched. I also choose books because "I want to read the book", not because it is accessible locally. If the owner won't send to my country, I can wait till the next one becomes available, so all of that is not important to all. My piece.
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>Currently, I'm working on getting better book data (from non-Amazon book data sources), so that "Topics" work better, but also so that our mooching friends in non-Amazon countries can enter their books easily. LibraryThing has implemented something to that effect, by merging *public* archives from various sources. This is called 'OverCat'. Books I cannot find on Amazon sites for my book catalog, I tend to be able to get from Overcat, although in a few cases, I had to create the LT record myself, since a few books were nowhere to be found. The future changes they want to implement look like the OverCat cataloguing is going towards what you are aiming for. In this case, maybe we could link up to their OverCat system in future? Some sort of collaborative venture? Just a thought. http://www.librarything.com/wiki/index.php/OverCat
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>Currently, I'm working on getting better book data (from non-Amazon book >data sources), so that "Topics" work better, but also so that our >mooching friends in non-Amazon countries can enter their books easily. This is a welcome piece of news!
I don't particularly need it because I read (and mooch) mostly in English, but it's true that when I try to add to my inventory an Italian book it seldom is available ;)
Not a great inconvenience, but it could be pleasing to look for an Italian ISBN and find the book right away ^____^
And, John, THANK YOU - as always. Your work is awesome, this site is awesome.
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This is not a feature I would want. Most books posted in the UK go for 81 pence. A book would have to be within about a mile (one mile there and one mile back) if this idea is going to be green with people still driving cars. The postal system is a cheap and efficient method of moving small packages around. I can already see which books are available in my town using the browse options. Anything outside the that sddress area is going to me better posted. John
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This feature would probably be great for someone in a big city who might find a moocher in the next street. But for me - well, the postman calls at my house most days so it would be greener to let him/her deliver the book than to drive to the next village to get it. As for the privacy/security issues: having those concerns would be a good reason to opt out but not a good reason not to have the facility available for those who wanted it.
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I read about half this page and I kept thinking that I would only find this useful if I wanted to request a book that had a large number of copies available. But in that case I would benefit more from a *list* of the copies, sequenced by distance from me, ideally including any condition and status notes. In fact the only difference between this and the list we already get when we click the "Mooch" button is the option to sequence by distance. (Hint, hint.)
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I like the Opt/In Opt/Out option narrowed down by zip code. as you can see from my profile pic, location is not a big privacy concern; when all someone has to do to get information on you is to request a book.
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I can understand where people would want to know the exact location to save postage. But like many have said, that can be found when you go to mooch the book. Personally, I don't know how comfortable I would feel about someone requesting to meet to hand-off the book. Also, I live in a small town and doubt there are many users nearby, so the opt-in/opt-out sounds good. Side note: In the future, maybe you could reach out to libraries (or even businesses like Starbucks since there's one on every corner, even in my small town). Let's say Jane Doe wants to mooch a book from John Smith. Jane requests the book and John goes to respond and notices that Jane lives in the same town. John asks Jane if she would be willing to meet for the hand-off to save him a couple of bucks in postage. Jane says she's not comfortable with that. John then says, "Why don't I drop it off at the local library for you. I'll tell them that Jane Smith will be picking it up shortly." Jane says, "That's a fantastic idea. Thanks John!". John sends a notice after he has dropped it off and Jane goes to pick it up. Just a thought.
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vague location + opt out As you seem to imply, opt in means the idea is essentially pointless, since most won't. Normally I'm more interested in opt in, but if that's the case, don't even bother because it won't be worth your time. Also I'm less concerned about opt out if the location is vague to start with. But as others have posted, if you're in a rural area, 10 miles isn't vague enough, so it has to be both.
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The nearest person I have located on Bookmooch, apart from one I introduced, is 50 miles away. I would rather keep our postal service intact (severely under threat) as 100 mile drive is certainly NOT carbon-friendly.
I'd also rather see other improvements first. It is already difficult for those in isolated places to mooch, as more people in the US seem to want a local rather than an international service (with very generous exceptions),
The first improvement I would like to see is the with-holding of the mooch points until the book has been delivered (own country) or sent abroad. Too many moochers accept a mooch, and then a week or two later vaguely mail "There will be a delay". In one case the delay was 6 months for something unobtainable elsewhere, in others it never is sent at all.
These 'point-snatchers' will only be discouraged if they do not receive the points merely for saying they will send a book, or in the case of own country, just for having received a mooch request. All my books are sent within a week despite the 40 mile round trip to PO. Please consider this alteration to the way Bookmooch points work as it really leaves a bad taste in the mouth for me!
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I like the idea of a books near me page but I think its a bit sketchy that my address would be readily available like that. i think it's a fair compromise to not have it show the exact location. I like the idea of having the "less than 10miles" thing. I would be interested to see what kinds of books people are mooching near me but i'd still be use the mail for my transactions. I already meet too many weirdos using Craigslist...
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It seems that members have such differing views it can only be an opt- in/opt-out option. I see many good points on both sides.
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There are members who have been victims of domestic violence. (It's a given due to the numbers BookMooch does.) Anything that creates an uncomfortable situation for them, I'm against.
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I LOVE this idea! It would save so much postage for me! I like the idea of having an opt-in choice so those who dont want to do it dont have to and those who do, can without having to be put down by those who dont want to. I think it should at least be a choice!
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even if you were to use opt in or opt out, I still would not want my location to be shown period. I realize once a mooch takes place that person has my address but I am not concerned with this part as much as for those that do not trade and just sign up to acquire info. And if there are others that agree then opting in will not really do much good either. And for those that think it doesn't happen, your so very very wrong. I have a neighbor who has been there!!!
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I'm with Marjory. I don't want my location to be shown, either. The whole idea for moving to this location was privacy.
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How about just making the zip code search more user friendly? I live where there are multiple zips within 10 miles and they are not numerically relatable at all. I dont know all of them. Could you make a "zip search within 25 mi" button available?
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Privacy issues aside, jmargethe above makes a good point -- what happens if some of the members living in big cities decide they will only accept local mooches so they can "save postage"? It becomes an unequal relationship -- everyone else's inventories are available to them (and those senders are paying postage), but their inventories are available only to a select few. As it is now, everyone has equal opportunities, urban or rural, and the point system reflects the differences in postage for domestic vs. international. Bookmooch books aren't free, the cost is the book you send to someone else plus the postage to send it, which is the same cost that was paid by the sender for every book you mooch. I appreciate what you were trying to do, but I think adding a feature that essentially promotes local mooches is a bad idea.
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I'd be happy if I could just see at a glance what books from my wish, saved for later and recommendation lists are available within my own country to save clicking and checking to only find out I don't have enough points or the member will not ship out of his/her own country! So glad to see all the improvements though, and thanks so much for all you do for us bibliophiles!
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I don't think this is an option that I would use. The info now tells what state a book is from, and that is more than enough info for me. There have been times I would pick a local book over a distant one, thinking it would be quicker delivery. Well, I was mistaken. Our mail system works well, and I rarely have problems with deliveries. Speed of getting a book depends on how quickly the giver gets it out. Arranging a meeting can be tedious, and I think people may hesitate to give their address with the knowledge they are going to find that stranger at their door.
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I'm not against the idea, but I don't see where it would help me find books that I like. I used to check the zip codes near me, but could never find any books that I liked. Now I just wait until something pops up from my wishlist. If you did it, though, I'd probably opt in.
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Make it approximate and provide an opt out option. I don't really want people to know exactly where I live unless they're getting a book from me. Approximate location would be OK, though.
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