I mentioned yesterday that I had a radical idea of greatly increasing the number of "high quality" books in BM, but that I haven't brought it up because lots of people would hate it.

So... as a precursor to me telling you, understand that this is "just an idea" and is not "something I plan to do". Rather, it's just me "thinking outside the box" about possible directions BM could take, and what that would mean.

Without further ado...

That $10/month would be pooled together and used to buy books at a steep discount from a Used Book Aggregator (such as "A Libris" http://www.alibris.com/). As a Premium Member, you'd be allowed to mooch XX number of Premium Books per month, which would actually be purchased for you, from your membership fees, from A Libris.

Here are the advantages of this idea:

1) BM can get significant volume discounts because we'd be buying in quantity.

2) the BM buying system can be automated to "jump on" in-demand books that suddenly become available at a good price.

3) I've had several conversations with "A Libris" and shared the BM wishlist database (1.047 million ISBNs) with them. They found that they had over 95% of the BM wishlist available from the individual sellers that make up "A Libris". 73% of the books were less than $25.

4) A "Premium Book" would be one that BM had to buy for a Premium Member. If that member reads and re-lists the book, BM gives it preferentially to another Premium Member. This allows BM to charge less per month, as that $25 book might be circulated among several paying members.

5) A "Premium Book" that is listed that has no "Premium Members" wanting it would then go into general availability.

6) This could potentially hugely increase the number of books on BM that people want.

7) As a "buying cooperative" BM is able to get a significant discount when buying books, much more than you could get on your own.

8) Because a purchased book might be wanted by several moochers, BM can "charge less" to a member who wants it, since several people might end up reading it.

9) When you searched for a book, the search results would show free books first, and Premium Books secondly. You'd have a setting in BM to "opt out" of being told about the Premium Service, and BM would continue to look for you as it does today (commercial free).

10) There is currently $3,188.72 in the BookMooch bank account (thanks to people who "give a little") which could be used to kick start it.

11) Before people assume, let me say that my goal with this idea is not to "cash in" on BM but rather to leverage the power of size, interest and community that BM has. 30,000 active book swappers is a very significant force, and focussed in certain directions could do even more wonderful things.

Now, some significant downsides:

1) it would likely completely change the feel of BM. BM would no longer be non-commercial.

2) Moochers would no longer all be on an equal footing: there would be two tiers.

3) I don't know what the right membership fee should be, or how many books per month you should get for that. I'd have to experiment with it, and change terms over time as we see if this idea worked or not.

4) Would this help feed the "free side" of BM, or starve it? I don't know.

5) People might not be interested in a paying membership at all and it could be a waste of my time and BM's financial resources.

Now, before you post a comment in reply to this dangerous idea, understand again that it's just a crazy idea, not something I'm planning on doing, but nonetheless interesting and worthy of contemplation and discussion.

-john

I'm not sure about the fee structure. Some months I want books, and some months I don't. Maybe you could put the books in inventory. Then when you show the Amazon price you could also show the Bookmooch price. We could then pay book-by-book like any other transaction but with the advantage of Bookmooch's buying power. And what about shipping costs?

If the quality and range of the inventory is a real problem (arguing that '30,000 active book swappers is a very significant force,' would suggest otherwise!) then look at the presumed barriers to why moochers are not listing books. For example in a system of a book for a book would you keep more books listed to increase the chance of getting a book? Or what if the chances of getting a prized mooched book was dependent on the size/turn over of ones inventory?

But as mentioned in an earlier post, I've managed to mooch 1000 books and give away over 600 so is this perception of no decent books/points inflation down to unrealistic expectation of what bookmooch is? In my experience it's the internet version of ( as Americans say)a yard-sale or the back shelves of a thrift/charity shop. You dig round not expecting much but occasionally find a good read. If I want more I buy off Amazon.

It would be another blow for moochers outside the USA. Why not consider putting (buying) books for BM and put them in a special account (or more than one) and if you want one of those books you have to give a little (say 1 or 2 dollars) per book. Of course this is a bit complicated because what to do with books that nobody wants to mail outside their own country and angel mooches? But it would be more fair to people outside the USA.

I didn't say anything about this being only for Americans, so I'm not sure why you assume such a negative.

A Libris very much a global used book aggregator, and the Premium Membership system I describe would be available worldwide. At least in Europe and the USA, there is wide coverage of used books, and I don't see a problem in it working throughout Europe.

Looking at the Angel forum, it looks like most books find an Angel to send them, so I don't currently see a problem there. I've thought about a "I'm flying to a foreign country" feature in BM, that would tie into Angel mooching, and may do that someday if there aren't enough Angels with the current way of doing things.

Yes, the Premium Books would be available from a special "Premium BookMooch" member.

Your idea of asking for "1 or 2 dollars" for a premium book doesn't make sense to me, when I state above that wishlisted books cost "under $25" + shipping. How could a $1 to $2 donation work to pay for that book?

-john

I'm not sure about the fee structure. Some months I want books, and some months I don't.

The idea is that by balancing a regular monthly free (like netflix does) with "average demand" I could lower the monthly fee accordingly. As an example, a $10 fee, and you're "in reality" only asking for 1 $25 book every 2 months, would probably work out in the balance (after re-mooching).

Maybe you could put the books in inventory.

Yes, the idea is that all the books that could be bought at a good price, would be listed in inventory, and automatically bought and sent to the member when mooched. No sense in buying books that aren't being mooched at the moment (I don't want to warehouse them)

-john

We already have the unofficial bank to give credits to those who needs points. But what about an unofficial bank to buy points as well? I've already put this idea in another discussion but it was not accepted well.

You can put an account that buy and sell points. Buying points is of course cost less as it should be. This account will function as pivot for currency (points to dollars and vice versa). There are a lot us too that needs points some times. If you buy those extra points, let's say 10 cents per point and sell it 1 dollar per point or whatever. You don't only clean-up the extra points but has control of the inflation too. You can devalued those extra points...and put it back on the system by selling it. And if this will function, then there's incentives...then there's the new books for us all.

Well just an idea too...

I think how BookMooch runs is fine as it is - and I think the very large majority are very happy with it (alas - we need the silent majority to speak up!). Like I said before, more books, and a greater diversity of books, would come with greater numbers of members.

How would having a paying BookMooch membership differ (i.e. what are the advantages) from us getting a book we can't find on BookMooch ourselves by buying directly from Amazon or alibris or The Book Depository? Amazon marketplace has many secondhand books which are relatively cheap. The Book Depository (which sells new books) ships all books for free wherever in the world you are.

However, we haven't had a problem spending our points in the months we've been on BM. It probably helps that my husband likes classic SF, I'm quite eclectic in my reading, and we're also mooching baby/toddler books for our little girl, so the possibilities are broad. We add everything we're interested in reading (our wishlist is at around 1300, and something comes up from it every few days at least), including several books on a given topic, for non-fiction, and I read a few book blogs (between DH and I we also write three) and get ideas there of things I might be interested in. We aren't desperate to get the latest bestseller, usually, and if we are we'll either buy it new or get it as a gift from family members.

As you can see the Americans, and many other, are highly concerned about egalitarianism, making the initial response to this negative and personal.

I see it differently. Before the USA, Britain had (and maybe still does?) "subscription libraries" that worked exactly like this. I don't think it's a bad idea, but it's going to take a lot of time, thought, and input from a variety of sources to tweak the model until it's going to optimized efficiency and results.

On the other hand, there may be other ideas that can work more easily, such as a "premium book" category. I just bought a hardback, brand new book in a series that I didn't want to wait to mooch. After I have read the book, I can either drop it in for swapping, and get a credit worth about $3.00 to me; or I can sell it on ebay for the current going rate of about $8-$10. It would be cool if I could drop it into a swap system, but since it's *so* new, perhaps get an extra point or two for it. Then I feel like I've gotten my investment back; plus it opens up the number of copies for swapping. People who want it *right now* can pay an extra credit for it, and eventually it gets to the point that no one is willing to pay more than one, then it's no longer a "premium" book. This also has the advantage of tiering the books, not the members. Just a thought...not sure it's tweakable or not.

I suppose this could also help with the many posts I've seen about "I have lots of credits but there's nothing I want."

Robin

First, one commenter said it would only be limited to the US, but John pointed out that this is not the case. I buy books from Alibris in the UK, and the booksellers Alibris is really just an aggregator) ship to the UK, after which Alibris ships to me (in France). This works well, but takes a while.

I'm curious to see the numbers on this - how much of a discount there would be, and how much shipping would cost. In other words, how many books, and at what value, would one get for $10 a month. Like Nancy early in the thread, I've mooched and sent more than 200 books, but I don't do either any more, because I rarely find books I want. I do, however, have a lot of used books that I could list, if there were a chance that I could get some reciprical value for them.

John, is there any way you could do some simulations, getting an idea of what kinds of discounts there would be, what shipping costs, etc.? Alibris has many low-priced used books, and many others at much higher prices, so would there be a cut-off for moochable books?

I think it's a good idea. If it worked, I'd certainly list more books and send them out.

I really don't see anything at all wrong with the books availble on Bookmooch, the current bestsellers always become available in time. I always get more books here than I did when at PBS.

This idea does not seem to fit in with Bookmooch overall, and reduces the majority who would not join into second-class citizens, without much benefit overall.

I can see how Albiris would like this, but see it benfiting them much more than Bookmooch members. They sometimes have the lowest price, but much more often are beat out by Amazon and the rest. You have to check all the sites to find the best price, not just one. And while some albiris sellers ship international, more seem not too (and only small books).

I could see many more complications if Bookmooch were to act as a middle man to the many people who sell books on Albiris, would Bookmooch give refunds? A whole new level of management for sure.

I love the simplicity of Bookmooch and the way that books are traded so quickly and freely, with some execeptions. This idea would add so much complexity to the system and for very little benefit over Bookmooch members simply buying their own used books as needed.

1. If the community voice is against it, I don't care how much it might help. Angering the community results in apathetic or just plain lost members, and that's no good for BookMooch at all.

2. I'm not interested in participating in any programs that keep any part of the ownership of a book once I've mooched it. If a book is bought as a Premium Book, fine. But if I mooch it as a Premium Member, it is now my book. That should mean I'm free to keep it forever, rip it up for art projects, or re-list it as a normal book. I repeat: I'm not interested in anything that asserts ownership over a book I've paid for with points -- and so I'm especially uninterested in a program that asserts ownership over books I will have paid for with some actual money.

An 'automooch' wishlist which cost 1 point the moment you put something on the list _besides_ the point(s) the actual mooch will cost. Since it's expensive you won't put many books on it. The extra point will go to BM, so it'll act as a 'point sink', which is good.
An alternative version would be some sort of VIP wishlist where you'd need to spend that same point to get on it. Sort of like the paperbackswap one, but not by default and costly.

I think the only thing that might not be cool, is there may be a twinkling of an indication? maybe that there could be a more commercial element? And I hope you don't mean to bring in ads, or have the site be much different in the new membership area. I would hope we wouldn't have to indure those pop up adds, on some sites... or commercials/advertising. Too many sites are doing that already (like youtube) and I am so tired of all that. I hardly go to youtube anymore, because of wading thru an ad to watch a video. I love blogs but the ones with commercial ads on the edges are really distracting to me as well. I went to see a particular blog to read, and I get sent all over kingdom come...with enticements to look here and there.

When you show how it might work, by your ability to get wishlisted books at a discount for buying in large quantity, I can't really understand how people are so closed to the idea...whats to not love! Were I able to take advantage of that on my own I would, so with your offer of help, why wouldn't I? Ya know...People often have that flat earth syndrome...and don't know how to appreciate change, even for the better. They think they like discovering new truths until "new truths" feel like they are being "forced" upon them. BUT we all know now, that the Earth actually WAS round after all! That the fears they had were just rather silly. I personally love new ideas ( I believe that is why i love books)...and I love change, and, especially Change for the better!

Like any good fisherman...(I see it sort of like this), when I am fishing (for books), and I keep bringing up the little uns' with my bait (my books)...or the mid-sizers...whats wrong with spending a few more dollars (for better bait, so to speak) to get a nice juicy BiG Fish, you been wanting to have for ages? Happily, personally, I find it to be innovative to go out & buy me some great BAIT! I want the BIG UN's baby!!!

If that seems greedy, or ridiculous, I apologise. I love the books I have been able to acquire in here. But some books on my list will not materialize, I just know it, NoT EVER... without a system more like your membership tier one. So...Blessings upon you for even considering such "far out notions" my man! A pond without movement will only eventuate in stagnation...and ya don't need that, dear one. I know you work your fingers to the bone here and I feel that you (and your site/ yer lit'l baby) deserve be "excellant", for all your time and energy put into it. I hope you have the encouragement you need to move forward, in time. Excelling at what you are doing for all of us.

Your pal, always!
DreamingTikay

BUT... I think what would be a good idea is to pool together funds, perhaps, or take donations, to make a large order from one of these suppliers for a shipment of some of the most heavily wishlisted books. This will generate some traffic in the system. Let's say book XYZ has 200 wishers. If through donations or otherwise, enough money was come up with to buy 20 copies, these could filter through the system starting with 20 people and being traded at least 10 times each, where some people might opt to keep the book along the way but other copies may also come into the system in the meantime, but it would kill some stagnancy.

Again, it's not just about getting books for $10 a month, but it's also about getting people to list more books.

For those in the US who don't have access to a library, there is already an online Netflix-type book rental system called BookSwim.com.

I wouldn't participate because the great thing about getting a book through BM is that it then belongs to me. I can give it to a friend or keep it or donate it somewhere or relist it. For those books that I want to read, but not enough to pay B&N for, I have access to a library. I may have to wait a few weeks until it's my turn to get the book, but the same situation would be present in a BM lending library system and the public library is free.

But for people in places where English-language books are not so easily available, this might be an asset. I would suggest polling these members to determine their interest level.

I would, however, be open to a system that asks people who mooch more than, say, 25 books a year to pay a fee (much like the new system in place on the NYT site). I would consider paying $25.00 per annum to continue mooching to my heart's content. That money could be used to dump books into the system.

Another option is involving the very "whiners" who annoy you so much. Those of us who comment (even Frank!) are those of us who care deeply about BM and who would like to have a larger role in its upkeep. You could ask, in a blog posting, for those who can and who want to, to keep their eyes open for highly wishlisted titles and to purchase these (and other titles) solely to trade on BM. Many of us frequent thrift shops and booksales or online book sellers and could add books to their inventories solely for the purpose of helping out.

And, btw, with the introduction of Amazon pricing everywhere, BM went commercial several months ago.

"a program that asserts ownership over books I will have paid for with some actual money." I don't see that part in the proposal. If you repost it, another premium member gets a chance at it but it is your choice to repost or not.

My concern goes back to the concern I keep raising about wishlists and inactive members. "They found that they had over 95% of the BM wishlist available from the individual sellers that make up "A Libris"."

I really hope you filtered out books with more than one copy in the system when you sent them the "wishlisted" books, or better yet, filtered out the wishlists of inactive members. Almost every mass market book in the system has "wishlisters" that are really just inactive members. I am concerned that you're working with bad data here.

I have tried purchasing books from the PBS Market, and found the prices + shipping outrageous. If I can pay $10 a month here and mooch 3 books per month for only a point each, it would certainly be MUCH MORE cost effective than PBS's system. I would not want to pay $10 a month and then additional monetary fees, but I don't mind using existing points.

Also, if you're going to re-program the site to make it possible to track that someone is re-posting a book into the premium portion of the system, you could use the same programming to automate the angel network and automatically kick that extra point back in from the charity account.

For BM, I think this is a great idea AS LONG AS it does in any way not alter the availability of books for your free members.

In addition, if BM is losing money rather than making money, you'd like a way to keep BM afloat for the long term. A-Libris is a good choice for site of book purchases. I'd say go ahead with your idea.

It wouldn't necessarily bother me if this was created if it didn't affect regular mooching, but I have to think this would affect the general running of the site because of the time that would have to be devoted to customer service for paying customers (because there will inevitably be complaints and snags). And what about people who wishlist less popular books? Would they get anything out of this, or would it really be for people who are wishlisting the top-wishlisted books? (Just throwing out some things to consider.)

What about ways to better match the existing inventory with moochers? For example, what if there was a way to check off the genre, language, age range, or other categories when adding a book? Categories like this already appear on a book page, but they are unreliable. Then that type of info could be added into the search feature.

I have no idea how this would work, but what about giving an extra point, or half-point, for people who successfully send out a book wishlisted by at least 25 people? Or something like that?

Personally, I have no trouble finding books I want to mooch. I haven't been here long, and I like a pretty wide variety of books (sci fi, fantasy, horror, non-fiction) so I've managed to mooch quite a few books - mainly specific books or books by specific authors that I wanted. I managed to find a lot of them "locally" (ie from UK members), but don't mind mooching internationally so that gives me more options, and I send internationally too.

Isn't that what buying used books really cheap on Amazon is all about?

For me, I see this as another way o support BM, not a wasteful crashgrab.

I go out of my way to buy desireable and hard to get books at thrift stores, and post them here for mooching. I enjoy sharing books with others. I would rather see efforts made to clean up the system so we can more accurately gauge the relative value and popularity of a book on BM.

At times I mooch a premium book, only to find that the sender never delivers the product. The disappoinment can be tremendous. They post the books and never have the coutesy to respond about shipping one way or the other. I would like to see existing point totals depleted on people who treats other BM peeps in this manner. This is just a thought, and probably not well thought out. It does concern premium type books though.

I'm not against the Premium Membership proposal, but think other paths can be explored first.

I can't speak for anyone else on BookMooch, but personally, I use my Wishlist as a way of bookmarking things I'd like to read. It doesn't mean I *expect* them to come up. I figure, if they come up, great, I'll mooch them. If not, that's okay, eventually I'll buy them whenever I can find them cheap.

I like Harmen's idea above where you'd have some premium services that cost extra mooch points for a trade. His idea of an auto-mooch system for an extra point is one I'd take advantage of.

I think one of the biggest issues in the Bookmooch world right now is the inflation of too many points in the system. I have 110 points right now and 250 books on my wishlist. That sounds good except that I can only mooch perhaps 3-4 books per month if I'm lucky. I have way more points than I'll likely ever be able to spend. I have no incentive to add additional books to my inventory because it will just cost me money in shipping for points I can't use. So I re-list books I've mooched and read, but I won't add the 500 other books I've got sitting in boxes.

Any premium services you can add that cost points rather than money would help alleviate the inflation and I'd very likely participate, but I'm not likely to spend more money than BookMooch already costs me.

Does this mean that members in favour would consider 'premium' Bookmooch a cheap book store? If so, why not buy from the others already out there?

I can see why some would be in favour of the idea but I'm one who doesn't see that many benefits.

1) I think we need the water to settle under the bridge from the recent raft of changes.

2 )If we are expected to pay 3 points per book, these 'Premium' books are going to be vastly overpriced for those of us still trying to be active in BM from overseas.
3 points AND a regular premium - ouch!

4) The addition of Amazon second hand prices, to my mind, is the biggest contibutor to reducing WL books - who is going to list them when reminded that they could get twice as much by selling them elsewhere. I ahve disabled that function but it's available to everyone.

3) In fact I will probably be forced to leave BM once my points dry up. As things now stand I have about 300 points that I have been madly accumulating in the past 2 months.
These will now be like gold dust and reserved for books I really want rather than books from my WL than randomly appear.
After all, who is going to pay 3 points per book for regular (non Premium) books, they'll just wait for a local book to turn up and BM overseas will grind to a halt.
I'm happy to re-list WL books but I'm not prepared to list more than before just to persuade people to Mooch from me.

I'm thinking something like this: premium members list what books they want. BM buys with their money some of these books - say 10 copies of a postsecret book, for example. 10 premium members who requested the book are chosen at random and they get the first chance to mooch it (through a reservation). If they don't mooch it, it opens to all the premium members who requested it. Possibly there could be a clause stating that premium members have to send the books on again, though personally I reckon that the premium members are the ones most likely to re-mooch anyway.

Or, in the system you proposed, after going to a couple of premium members, the book would become available to everyone. Something like that.

So yeah, fine tuning, but I wouldn't be averse to a premium scheme. It would be especially good if the costs could be kept really low (like, a couple of dollars a month) so that it would be as unrestricting as possible for those on low funds.

Having said that, I do see one problem. Most of the books on my wishlist are ones that I'm not likely to relist at all. Or if I do it won't be anytime soon. Which would badly skew your numbers if others are the same way.

What about seeing if you can get discounts for a group buy once every six months or so? That way anyone can participate to the level they can afford and there will still be, a hopefully good, discount. Then some of the books would come back through without the need for separate tiers. It would also encourage members to purchase from this company in between group buys. Hmmm maybe once a year would be better..... It would also be nice if this company's prices could show as well as them amazon price. Being honest, I think paperbackswap has something similar to what you are thinking about. And I'm seriously unimpressed with that site. It was the first one I tried and I was going to give up until someone pointed me here.

A yearly group buy would allow everyone to participate to a level they could afford without the headache of separate tiers and worries that the costs may end up being higher than the income. And you could ask for donations at the same time that would go towards getting some of the books that are on multiple wishlists to be started around.

The break even point for most Americans to consider it would be the ability to mooch 3 books per month. That works out to $3.33 per book which is less than the typical $4 on Amazon (of course that is assuming these are books with a lot of copies on Amazon, not always the case, I know). I assume we would also have to chip in a bookmooch point, but for many members they have a surplus and the cost:point ratio is relatively low.

Even if John were getting the books for free, many of these books are going to be larger hardback books that are heavy. For US moochers that means $2.38-$2.77 per book. So at best, John would either make a few cents per book, or have to charge enough money that only a small number of people would be interested and it wouldn't be cost effective.

The real monkey wrench is international members. Assuming most of these books are big enough that flat rate padded envelopes are the cheapest way to go, that's $13.25 per book to non-US/Canada if the postage is bought online. Spending 3 points for the book doesn't help John any, since he can't convert those points into cash to make the site run.

So there's pretty much no way it would be cost effective for John to be able to ship most books overseas @ $10 a month... and at higher prices I think few would participate.

I have no problems with the idea. I would consider joining. I personally would not like any sort of per transaction fee. I'd rather just donate $10/month, and if a book I like shows up, I'd get it, and if not, just consider the $10 a donation. I can see why many would choose not to join. I don't see how this could possibly hurt the free members of the site, unless they just all get pissy at the concept of something on the site costing money, which seems to be what is happening here.

Granted this is just based on the very preliminary idea, can't guarantee I'll like the final outcome!

Amen to that! Sometimes people who speak out in this site against changes, seem to be so ultra conservative, and basically angst-ridden over the smallest potential changes.
I often wonder why folks bother to cause more dissent, with odd fears and complaints, when the change really would only affect those who chose to participate in the membership and not yourselves...it wouldn't affect you all,one can surely assume, with whats been proposed...not in any way whatsoever! EXCEPT to possibly result in more good books being added to the average inventory in here, as indicated by one person here, who said they would add the books when finished.
People really are strange, sometimes! It's a CuRiOus thing to behold. I must admit it interesting to read your thoughts.
;~})

-- Christopher Allen

If it is implemented at BookMooch, I will still be a member, and continue to mooch and list and go to the ubs and to Amazon.com. Books I get at Amazon are usually books that I am keeping and can't find here.

Times are tough and I don't really have an extra $120 per year to get to be a "PREMIUM MEMBER". That amount is a significant amount of my postage budget.

I am happy to be a "regular member", but I would not be very happy if a book I listed for "regular members" were snagged by paying "Premiums". It would leave a nasty taste and I believe that more than anything else is what is bothering most dissenters. (Some animals are more equal than others....George Orwell).

If you decide to go this route, will you have separate databases of books available? There are too many questions to be asked, and too many answers to be pondered. Personally I would rather a search engine at the wishlisted books so I could find out what I could get at the ubs clearance that someone wants. That way I could increase the number of circulated books. PBS has one, why don't we? I would donate $10 for that and I think some other people would too.

Don't spoil the gumbo, John.

-- Christopher Allen

A pay per book system would work better for me.

Once everyone has got used to it being there I don't think it will change BM that much, it will just be an extra service.

I would prefer a BM library :)

How would the books which are purchased be chosen? For the most part, my wishlist has a lot of older, out of print books and specialty, academic books--most of these are not on anyone else's wishlist. Would it just be the most popular, most wishlisted books which are purchased?

Would we still spend points to mooch the books, in addition to the monthly fee? If so, then the books cost whatever + $3, since that's approximately what our points have cost us. If not, then we'd still be sitting on points we can't use.

Does the monthly fee guarantee that we get books from our wishlist?

For the most part, I'm not into anything which charges me a monthly fee--if I have the money, I'd rather use it to pay for whatever when I want it. And I don't always have the extra money for that ongoing fee.

I also like the game aspect of BM; I like the surprise of finding an available wishlist book, and I like that when I'm broke I can just use my built up points and get a book without spending money. I like that I can use my points to mooch things I'd never spend money on.

I guess I don't really see why I'd want to pay a monthly fee to do what I can already do, via any of the online booksellers. It remains to be seen whether (or how much) we'd actually save with a volume discount.

i.e., A dangerous idea

I was one of those who immediately started contributed to the $5 / month for the upkeep of the site. That amounts to $60 a year. I saw no harm in that. When I hit hard economic times, I got out of the program. I intend to join "I give a little" when things improve (on the economic front for me) again.

Your suggestion is to now add a $120 a year layer above that for the premier membership. The $60 a year folks get no added benefits.

I will agree, that I don't like two tiered systems. On the other hand, I can see its merits in order for the site to continue functioning.

Here is a third perspective. I am what you would consider a "VERY SMALL" book dealer. I will probably remain that no matter my desire to own my own used bookstore some day. I own thousands of books. I have listed very few. I trade book on E-bay and Amazon along with Comic Books and some CDs. Mostly, I trade Used College Text Books. But there is less and less money even in that area. I do have inventory that would benefit BM, but as I've said before, I can't put it on BM overnight, due to lack of funds in shipping it all at one time.

Would a two tiered system stop me from posting my books here?

Depends.

I think for people who read as slow as I do -- some books, it takes me as long a month to read -- YES, I see no benefit from this system.

For the fast readers -- 2-3 books a week -- this system would be heaven sent -- if they can afford it.

Weigh it, carefully.

As for two-tier membership, like many I could not afford to do that, being on a pension, but it seems it might help, but only if the books were relisted, and would they be? It may be that they would be the ones that were kept, that may be why they are in such short supply here? or they might be stuck in a long chain of premier embership people, and that sounds lie it might end up with a wishlist option like PBS..
I would hate it to change the feel of BM drastically too, which you anticipate, John, that it may.

While I have not read hundreds of status messages, I have read enough to know a decent portion of us have tight budgets for postage. I myself have now had to drop from about $25 to $13. (Thank you fed gov for believing there is no need for cost-of0liv adjust while daily prices skyrocket) If I were to consider being a Premium member, I would still be able to acquire new reading material every month, BUT I could only accomadate 1 "regular" request...how fair would that be?

I don't see where this would truly improve BM. For those who like the idea, here's a thought, take that $10 and put it aside for 3 months, and THEN go yourself to Alibris and buy that up -to-$25 wishlist bk. Don't think I don't know what I'm talking about...it took me until the beginning of March to decide which bks on my Alibris wishlist I was purchasing with the $20 I got at Christmas.....and I had enough change left over to send out 1 extra book for a moocher.

While initial entrance of premium-bought books into the system may put all recipients on a somewhat equal footing if you can find the right suppliers, later circulation of relisted premium inventory will likely run into the same postage cost woes as regular books, or worse.

Out of curiousity, what would the cut off be for a "new" book? Like, how long is it considered "new" after being released?

I am also a member of paperbackswap,which is another site for Americans to swap books. They have a PBS market in which they sell overstock and new books. You can use a credit and then pay the difference as well as shipping. However, 99% of the time, you end up paying more for the book than you would if you bought it second hand or even new. But it is a great way to support the site. While John, you have a very good idea, how would you decide shipping rates? As this is an international swapping site, shipping rates would have to vary. Or would those be included in the $10 a month?

I love bookmooch. I check it umpteen times a day to see if any wishlist books are available. I am currently into chick lit and maybe 90% of my wishlist is from British authors. The reason I love this is because I can get so many hard to find books for much, much less than I would if I had to buy them used or even new. If a new membership service started, chances are I would not be able to get my hands on many books and I can tell you right now I am in no position to afford $10 a month. I am very active on this site, sending and receiving. I spend around $100 a month on sending books, some times more. Rates are going up here in the US to mail books. At this rate I will have to slow down or stop, which I do not wish to.

I find the new listing of Amazon used book prices a similar service. Ten dollars a month usually gives me 2 used books a month, and these are exactly what I want.

I like John thinking about new ways to make Bookmooch work.

Don't have a problem with a premium or paid membership level with added benefits (maybe, like first notification on items or several day holds books from your wishlist or other things).

I would rather simply get a purchasing discount (% off price) for items purchased from various book-sellers not available to normal customers. An automatic notification of something being availabe to purchase on my wishlist would be nice, but not necessary. A discount would encourage people to buy more books and hopefully make more available for mooching. I really wouldn't like to see too many major changes to the way Bookmooch works. Still not thrilled with price listing of books (believe it is counter-productive to the goal making more quality books available).

Although I am not always comfortable with change I often come to see the wisdom in it....especially as I age. Having said that, I for one do not have $120 a year to pay for this type of service and would have to pass. I would go to the library or purchase it elsewhere if I really need to read a book that I cannot get here. In my opinion, I think people need to get their expectations under control....not everyone's wishlist is going to be fulfilled completely--that's why we have wishlists. Just because it exists does not mean those wishes come true. That's just reality.

I do like Robin's suggestion of extra points for a much wish-listed book. I also really like Christopher Allen's idea of being able to be bumped up on a wishlist for extra points. Both of these ideas are much more doable for me personally.

Christopher's Idea was:
Another wild idea is if there are none of a particular book in the system, and there is a large demand, you can pay additional mooch points to be the first to automooch it. For instance, for a new Dresden files book which has lots of people wishing for but none offering, I might offer +5 points for a mooch if I can get it during the next month. If someone offers that book, they get my 5 points (or maybe 4 points so that something goes back in to the system). The next person might have offered +3 points, and they would get the next one offered.
-- Christopher Allen

That's just my .02 worth. I struggle as it is to "give a little" every month. I will not becoming a premium member. I left PBS and other trade sites because it was just too expensive. I do thank you however, for the fact that you would still continue with the free subscriber services. I have invested way too much money to lose out at this point in time. I would be very upset if that went away...especially since I have invested in good faith that this is and will continue to be a free site.

Keep up the great work!
Kat

Or what about an opt-in wishlist feature where a person that lists an in-demand book can choose to first offer the book to moochers that have had the book in their wishlist longest...

I continue to accumulate books, but I don't list them because it takes a long time to find books that I want to mooch. When I list and send a book on this site, I feel like it's two dollars (or more) that I may never recuperate.

This is a free site, and really should remain free. Every part of it. We make the books available and we make the site what it is by what books we put up and where we ship them to. John works his magic by keeping things running and coming up with and changing things for the better, but we the readers make things what they are by what we offer and who we allow to mooch from us.

We already have somewhat of a two-tier thing going on with the worldwide/own country posting, and we all know how much bad feeling that can generate at times. Add in premium/non premium ... and I think things could get awkward.

Zippernek:
I have lots and lots of books - well over 1,000... Now, the majority of these will never see a listing by me on Bookmooch, as I consider them to be part of my permanent collection - books I will read more than once, books that have a special meaning for me, etc.

However, I may have as many as 300 to 500 books that I'd love to list... the problem being I cannot list them all at once, for fear that more than 10 or 12 would be requested at one time... which would amount to more than I can afford to send... so, unfortunately, my inventory must remain rather small. I'll be listing more in April, if all goes well.

Unfortunatly, financial concerns also keep me limited to sending within the USA, but I am more than willing to work with the Angel network to get books to those who want them, wherever the eventual recipient resides.

Heather:
I understand the core of bookmooch being 1 point to 1 book. And that's fine for books I paid less than $10 to $25 for, maybe years ago, and have used and/or read, perhaps many times.

However, I also have a few, much heavier (in both weight and cost) books that I might list if there were a premium points tier. These are not mass market paperbacks, they are not even your average trade hardcover books, but were made from premium materials and intended for collectors. They are in gift quality condition. I will not list them for one point, but I might, if I could do so for 5 or 10 points.

A premium points tier may also help members who have so many points they can't spend them all. I'm not there yet, but, keeping my mooch ratio near 1:1 does give me a few points I am more reluctant to spend... and as long as the .1 is given for listing books, those points I am reluctant to spend keep growing. I would support a change like this.

Why? Because it enables a requester to multi-mooch from a wider selection of books. It enlarges the potential availability of books whilst enabling members to keep within their postal budget.

Postal budget seems to be a big problem, and perhaps we should all be campaigning for lower printed paper and surface rate postal charges especially for books.

as for your idea of premium rate being applicable to larger, heavier, more collector-type books, well the way to work that fairly would be a nightmare to police or else it would be a free-for-all with everyone charging as many points as they like.
I do know what you mean. I have just removed 35 books that are heavy and had stayed on my inventory a while, whilst parcelling up a requested expensive heavy large art book where I had asked for a multi-mooch to spread the cost, but received a request for just this one book. It costs more than double what a normal book would cost to post.

A sizable number of the books we have listed are between 50 and 130 years old. 'Junk' because they often take a while to be mooched, or 'treasures' because of the delight of many on finding them?

To those who have too many points they can't spend I suggest, give a bunch to charities - it will make you feel good, and what goes around comes around.

perhaps we should all be campaigning for lower printed paper and surface rate postal charges especially for books.

Yes, definitely!

I decided long ago that putting my whole account on vacation when I am not online and taking it off vacation every time I log in was just too much trouble... and not something I'm willing to do.

Wish I had been the one to request that art book from you. I'd have done the multiple mooch to get it, because that one book is probably worth the points that two or three books would cost anyhow.

I am not here for the savings on books.
I am in Bookmooch because I like to see my books go to people who actually want them - the 'right home' as pet-ads. say.
I am in Bookmooch to help spread some books to places where they are a scarce and expensive resource.
I am in Bookmooch to be able to get the occasional book from another country that is simply not available here.
Most of my points go to charities.
When mooching is slow I stock up on postage stamps for the rush times. If nothing is available that I want I look for new authors that might interest me, I check out reviews and expand my reading genres.
I suspect that even if the two tier system evolves and books are bought in that the availability of such books to the general BM readership will remain low and if relisted they will go to people who have automated systems to tell them when a new listing is available.
Take that as an opportunity to read something a little out of the mass market new releases.

That said, if it were implemented, it wouldn't make me leave. And it might well have those upsides for common people that you mentioned, as well. I just don't like the idea of creation of an upper-class/lower-class dichotomy; I feel it really would spoil things.

So I'm against the idea (why not just buy the books yourself, if you have the spare money to buy them?), but I'm not offended at the suggestion or anything. It is a crazy idea, but -- while not something I'm in favor of -- worth discussing, just in case my opinion's in the minority.

Edited: While posting this, I was thinking if I were going to actually send money to Book Mooch, I'd rather give to Book Mooch for Book Mooch, not for a membership. Now it's occurred to me that I haven't given to the site in a long time. So I'm putting my money where my mouth (or thoughts!) are, and sending a check today!

I like the idea of vacationing just the inventory so people can continue to use their points, mark books received and contribute to forums without having to empty their inventories. I keep my inventory empty now (and post a batch of wishlisted books every couple of weeks which go within hours) so I can participate in between pay periods.

What I would be interested in is getting a couple or three points for a hardback book instead of one point. Not only are hardback books more expensive to buy, but they cost more to mail, too. Right now I won't enter my tradeable hardback books on Bookmooch unless I got them for A. free, B. really, really cheap, or C. used arena (books stores, garage sales, library cleanouts, other swap sites. etc.)

This system probably wouldn't be of much use to people who are looking for the more obscure, specialized, and/or older books, but nor would it have a negative impact for them. I don't know what impact it might have on people outside the U.S. The main downside I see at first glance is that some people who would otherwise buy a book themselves and then put it into the BookMooch inventory would instead wait for it to arrive through the Co-op system, thus reducing the number of copies available to BookMooch. Or maybe it wouldn't really have much impact at all, depending on the book. Alternatively, perhaps for really popular books, one copy could be purchased with the others and made available in the regular BookMooch system.

Just a thought. In any case, I would hate to see a two-tier system that changes how BookMooch itself functions, but perhaps some tweaking to the basic idea could come up with a win-win system.

I would not pay a monthly membership fee on either site.

I would however consider buying books from a Bookmooch Marketplace to help support the site. But to pay a montly fee doesn't make sense to me. I would rather put that money towards buying books used somewhere.

Between things I bought and haven’t got around to reading yet, books friends have given me, and things I’ve mooched and that I still have to start, I have about 100 books at home waiting for me. The books I mooch are those I really want and most of the times they end back on BM, unless I think I’ll want to reread them.

I’m enthusiastic about the idea of people giving books for books, of giving books a new life, and of the non-commercial nature of BM. So, I am not interested in the idea and wouldn't contribute 10 USD a month to a fund for mass purchasing of books.

I am happy with the current set up, so wouldn't opt in to a paying system for new books.

I do like the idea someone suggested that BM should just buy a few copies of heavily wishlisted books occasionally, and circulate them in the normal way, maybe giving priority to those who give a little. I don't expect they'd include any of the books I'm still waiting for though :)

Perhaps the premise could be that if you have a book reserved for you that you list here you are obligated to find and reserve one other book that has been requested in the forum for someone else (not necessarily the person who sent to you). That way a pool of generous moochers will be helping each other, but not swapping books directly, in true BM tradition.
There could be a rule, that after the first book you receive like this you may not list another on the forum until you have sent a book out in return.

This would help to get wanted/much wishlisted books circulating, without moochers feeling that they are being exploited by sending lots of wanted books but not getting any of their wanted books.
Perhaps a second rule should be a minimum time already on BM, or a minimum number of books already sent..

Many of us do look out for books wishlisted by our friends anyway, so this would be an extension of that.

This is in part a response to Veronica's message.

- Yes, it's true and I think this is also one reason why there are moochers who can't get what they want because we already checked our friend's wishlist and will offer to them first. I for one, I only list books I can offer to my friends who are willing to mooch multiple books to help me with the postage. It's a bit overwhelming to list 20 books and then be mooched all single. My postage budget is very limited. I often don't list them all...just one and post the rest on my bio page, this way the moocher can see there are more (lucky you if you always check your giver).
- I've already sent a lot of books but still I have no extra points...and always hoping to send more if possible financially. If you offer your books to others...you'll be offered some books in return.

@ Gill & Mark Tennant: It's a good idea! I'll gladly participate.

Irrelevant to this topic, but I would use BM much more if I knew that when I get a notice that a book on my wish list had been posted, I would not so often go to the site only to find out that it has already been snatched up. I can't sit at the computer 24/7 checking my email just to make sure I get a book.
Tani

How about instead of going to this "tier/money" direction, keep going with the commerical free site, but add more books this way:

Develop marketing letters members could use to market BM to "charities" such as public libraries, school & college libraries, churches, etc. They likely will have books they don't want, to trade for books they do. You already have the charity feature, but I don't think it's been used as much as it could be. (Make sure any such marketing letter(s) includes specific instructions on how to sign up as a charity -- I have trouble finding this feature even though I know it's there somewhere.)

I am one of those people who has some problems finding the books I really want (usually a non-fiction book), so I may settle for something of a lower priority, but I still appreciate the trades anyway. Still I would LOVE to have an infusion of non-fiction books from libraries from around the country added to BookMooch.

I would also add that I have tried out several other book trading sites. My two favorite are BM and PBS. But PBS absolutely refuses to allow libraries and other charities to do this... their mistake, your opportunity!

I always think I should mention this to the librarians, but I always forget... but I would mail or email a letter to a librarian on your behalf (OK, I'm lazy).

Valerie

I belong to and work at a cooperative and I have to say that the notion of "group buying" books is very appealing, as long as the discount is enough to make me not want to just go to a book store and buy it. I also have a favorite book store where I pick up random good reads and, very rarely, books I have here Wishlisted. Honestly, BooMooch and my bookstore fulfill very different needs but the store is leading in victories, currently. Also, as per my expectations of a group buy, I'd like to know what I can get, ahead of time. Or if I just had a flat discount applied to my A Libris account by my BookMooch Premium Membership, that would work, too. Otherwise, I'd be paying ten bucks a month to just stare at lists of cheap books I don't want, which is what I'm doing now, on BM, for free. As long as it doesn't go down like that, I would probably buy into it, pending some budget calculations.

I have nearly 300 points and I just can't seem to spend them. I've even taken to not posting books that aren't on at least one active member's Wishlist. I finally got to the point where I was sitting on too many books that weren't of any interest for too long and it was creating a difficult situation for my Mooch Ratio. I could do the "usual" thing and bloat my point total with garbage lit and hope stuff I want comes through. But without there being any interesting books out there, what's the point of being greedy just to have to do more work? What it comes down to is that I'm not big into reading novels (why own a book I can get at the library?) so I'm usually trying to mooch reference books and other non-fics. However, the stuff I'm after is on EVERYONE'S Wishlist and I just don't see them very often on BookMooch. I do look for other, less mainstream books but since I tend to chase topics and not authors, the field for new books isn't quite as wide for me, I think. More and more, I find myself acting upon books I'm interested in but have not Wishlisted, only to find that the user abandons their account almost immediately after accepting my mooch. I don't know why such a pattern maintains; maybe I'm just exaggerating. It's a bummer for sure, and it makes me less likely to mooch anything, both in theory and application.

Maybe that's all a bunch of prattle. I should just say that I think it's a nice idea but I'm hesitating on full-blown excitement until I see the package. And I did.

On this occasions, for me, it goes against the Bookmooch basis for which I joined - getting rid of my old "read" books which otherwise clutter the shelves and in exchange, I get something new to read.

I think that maybe introducing several second hand book sellers into the arena rather than just Amazon is a good move. If we want a book, and it's not available for free, then we buy it! Fact of life, market forces and all that. Afterwards, it's rolled into the general Bookmooch circulation. Isn't that the same as premium membership? You pay a subscription/you pay for a book?!

The only difference as I see it is that under this option, you pay for what you want and that's all.

I like the spirit of this principle of circulating books for free. Agreed, that this doesn't always have all the books we would like, but I think the answer is advertising and increasing the pool of users, not subscription fees which still wouldn't guarantee the books you want!

IF YOU FIND ANY BOOK FROM ALIBRIS IF EXISTS SOMEWHERE ELSE FOR EVEN LESS, NAMELYU ABE OR AMAZON.

SO, THE TITLES THEY SAY THEY HAVE ARE NOT BOOKS SITTING IN THEIR WAREHOUSE--THOSE FIGURES ARE STRAIGHT FROM THE LISTINGS OF AMAZON, ABE, AND A FEW OTHER LARGE SITES. THEY PUT ON AIRS ABOUT WHAT THEY ALEGEDLY HAVE BUT LOTS OF THOSE BOOKS AREN'T AVAILABLE AND DEFINITELY FOR LESS THAN WHAT ALIBRIS AS MIDDLEMAN WANTS FOR THEM TO MAKE A PROFIT.

BOTTOM LINE--SKIP OVER ALIBRIS AND GO STRAIGHT TO AMAZON, POWELLS, ABE, AND DON'T GREASE THE WHEELS OF A NASTY MIDDLEMAN.

I ended up putting a message that no more points were needed thank you, in the status and so that it showed prominently in the charities page, but still points were given, even after I said I was winding the charity up. Meanwhile I was giving points to other charities from my personal account. Moochers are generous!

I find the best method for giving points to charities is to go through every charity on the page looking at more info and often there will be one or two you can identify as actively mooching and really in need of points - often down to less than 10 points left! A real improvement tweak for me would be for charities to be moved up the list of charities when their points were low, and for people to be unable to donate to charities that are 'on vacation'. People still give points to charities that have been inactive for over a year.

May I suggest a-tier-within-a-tier type of membership? I would be willing to pay $12 a YEAR to be guaranteed 1 book/month from my "premium wishlist" (a list that should be created for those titles that I REALLY want, versus my normal wishlist which includes books that I would mooch if they became available). If at least 12 books arrived over the course of a year (in addition to additional books I get from free bookmooching) then I would consider it money well spent. Since they will be recirculated more easily (due to the extremely low cost of $1 plus shipping) then those in-demand books will be more available.

And if others want to pay more they should have the right to pay $24 or $48 /year for more guaranteed books. In the end each book would cost $1 per premium member, paying for the book after only 24 members (or less) exchange the book.

Also, with this plan I would be open to putting my self purchased books into the system. I know I have a few books that have an active wishlist, and I wish I could put them into the system right now, but I also have more points than I can spend right now and little extra income with which to be generous. My patience is paying off as more books are becoming available and soon I will put more books into my inventory, but I agree finding some way to get me books on my wishlist would make me more generous overall. :-)

Please don't enact this change.

i would like to bring an idea to the table, that would still allow membership to be free, but might give incentive to more premium books....

if we can identify lets say the top 100, 500, 1000 or whatever # makes sense of the top wished for books...

give an incentive 2 credits to ship, one of these books at a premium 2 credits to mooch, or 2.5 credits to 2.5 credits, etc...

for international we can up the credits to say 5 to ship and maybe 3.5 or 4 to mooch, the number off credits are negotiable at this point as long as they are more than 1 to 1 domestic & 3 for 2 international....

i my situation, i would be more willing to list these items versus selling them on amazon, trading them at a local used bookstore, or using another site like paperbackswap for example....

let me know what you think, not sure how possible/or how much extra work this would be, but it might do the trick.....

thanks, geno the bookie

It would have to be a ridiculously small amount of money to get me to buy into the premium service, even though I am voracious reader. As previously stated when I really want to read a specific title I look at used book stores, borrow from friends or try to find the cheapest copy online, almost NEVER paying ~$25 cover price. I'm guessing a large % of your members (people already interested in cheap swapping of books) feel similarly.

So how deep would a negotiated discount be, would it beat the discounted B&N Bestseller price (30% off hardcovers of bestsellers last I knew), and the usual lower than that Amazon.com price?

Example?

Drowning Ruth (Oprah book club and 2011 bestseller) $10.20 on Amazon, $12.50 on B&N (paperback)

Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother $14.90 hardcover on amazon, $15.82 hardcover B&N

Water for Elephants $8.30 paperback Amazon, $8.30 paperback B&N.

If you can negotiate a large order rate roughly 50% of these prices for yourself, and somewhere in between for us to buy from you MAYBE it will be worth it. But let us just purchase it from you outright, don't make it an exclusive premium club. If you have some dough and really want to read a title you can buy it.

If you can't negotiate prices lower than what we can buy it for online, then don't bother with this.

Out for a while due to illness and I'm just catching up here. I'm not keen on the tiered idea for a couple of reasons.

1]Can't afford $10 per month for books at the moment (or foreseeable future). My business is way down, furnace went out and car ate 1,000$. I added up the amount I've spent shipping books and it's astounding so I can't even afford to add tons of books for a while, just a few here and there.

2] A Libris is horrid! I never purchase from them because writing, water damage, mildew and cigarette smoke are common. It's a gamble whether the edition sent is even the edition ordered. A libris doesn't actually have the book in hand - their sub-sellers do and canceled orders are common when the seller has sold the book elsewhere. Also, which wish list books do the have? I doubt if they are the more expensive titles, probably loads of romances, Gothics, old text books, and kids books. If I want to purchase a used book, I go to Amazon because they are reliable.

I do think there needs to be some way for members who have lot of points to be able to 'up the ante' for books they super want. Maybe a way to attach a bonus points symbol to books so listing members can offer the book to them or maybe even decide to trade a book they were on the fence about getting rid of. Limit the bonus points to 10 titles (or whatever number works the best) so we have to decide which ones we REALLY want and the system isn't drowned in bonus offers. But please, as somebody who has ordered books for friends and neighbors just to get something, anything, please think about implemneting some way to offer extras for WL books.

Many thanks for all the work that goes into the site,
Betsy

Also, for $10 a month, I could just order several books from any booksller that lists on BookFinder.com.